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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: May 31, 2010 6:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

Years ago I spent hours doing an A-B analysis of those Spanish Jams and concluded they were not from the same performance. Not only does the source sound entirely different (not conclusive in and of itself), but I could not match-up a 4:48 passage during the 1/27 performance that I felt synchronized closely.

If your hypothesis is based solely on the confirmed Pacific Northwest rour dates, I'm not going to buy it. If you can point to a specific timing where the 1/23 partial locks-in to 1/27 file, you might be able to change my mind. After trying, I was unable to do that...

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Poster: Arck Date: May 31, 2010 9:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

It has just occured to me that, under my theory, the circulating "23/01", the circulating "27/01" fragment and the Road Trips Vol. 2 No. 2 "23/01" music should all match up sonically (subject to master tape vs later tape generation anomalies).

Thus a comparison between the "27/01" fragment and the Road Trips "23/01" stuff might be useful as well. I'll have to try this later.

Please try to knock down what I'm saying. I guess I'm just trying to prove something that is impossible to prove but I think there's more evidence in favour of what I'm saying than against it.

Feel free to chip in again LIA...

This post was modified by Arck on 2010-06-01 04:07:39

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jun 1, 2010 4:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

I think it's VERY likely the 1/27 Spanish jam is a continuation of our 1/23 tape. Not certain, but it's my bet.

It picks up at ALMOST the same point in the music, with little missing. It's true that it makes for a very long Spanish jam - but consider, it's the last song of the show, and they do seem to be dragging it out quite a bit.

The sonic difference isn't that great. Remember my original post? A "3/31" recording, that sounds completely different from our 1/22 recording, nonetheless turned out to be exactly the same show, from a different source! And nobody could have known until Miller gave us the complete 1/22. And there, too, the Caution has that tapecut so we have a gap in there as well, and yet the two sources fit together eerily.

I agree that Garcia seems to be saying "see you next time we're in Seattle," though I can't make out the next words. That would limit the possible dates quite a bit, since any Spanish jam would have to be from this tour - in fact, it would limit it to the 27th.

As for dates - someone has to do a lot more research before it can be settled. There may be missing shows we don't know about. (The lostlivedead blog has turned up quite a few of those, that nobody suspected. Any little NW college might have a lost Dead show.) Unless something else fills in that week, there's a gap either way - from the 20th to the 26th, or from the 23rd to the 29th.
Personally I think the 22nd/23rd dating is wrong, in spite of it being the Dead's own labeling, because it was a Monday/Tuesday, and there's no newspaper evidence for those nights. But it's not a big deal to me....

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jun 1, 2010 2:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

Pure speculation!

And I guess Jer was holed up for five days at the Tacoma Holiday Inn smoking Acapulco Gold ;)

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: May 31, 2010 10:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

"flipped stereo image?"

Now you are really grasping at straws!

Youve provided absolutely no sonic evidence that the music is from the same performance. Your hypothesis seems to be entirely based on the known tour dates in Seattle, when it's entirely possible that the Spanish Jam that circulates as 1/27, and/or the music from 1/22-23 could plausibly be from a entirely different date(s)/venue(s) alltogether (the way the band labeled and cared for recordings back then).

Naturally the music is going to be similar, Garcias guitar tone will be the same, Pigs contribution consistent, these are from the same tour, if not consecutive performances. And while the interpretations of Spanish Jam vary considerably from 1/17 through 2/14, if the partial of 1/23 was actually prior to, but from the same performance as the 1/27 recording, that would make it over 18 minutes in length. Certainly possible, but unlikely when the timings of the preceeding and following performances of Spanish Jam are significantly shorter.

To my ears, the performances of Spanish Jam from 1/23 and 1/27 sound quite different, and I'm not talking about the signature of the sources. To me they are entirely different interpretations.

David Gans included the 1/27 Spanish Jam in a GD Radio Hour program. Perhaps it might help you in your research...


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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: May 31, 2010 10:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

Your theory is entirely based on the premise that there were only two performances in Seattle (1/26-27). However, it is a fact that the Tour of the Pacific Northwest began in Eureka on 1/20. It seems highly unlikely that there were no performances on the tour after that and prior to 1/26.

The fact that material included on an official release is credited to a 1/23 performance also seems to indicate the likelyhood of at least one performance during that week. And while I'm still enclined to believe that the only performances in Seattle were on 1/26-27, I dont see how you could rule out a show there on 1/23 based on the inconsistent information available...

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Poster: Arck Date: May 31, 2010 8:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 1968 Re-Date

OK, I've just been comparing the end of the 23/01 snippet and the beginning of the 27/01 snippet. I'm still of the opinion they're the same performance. I put the sonic differences down to the following:

* The 23/01 has much more hiss. This is entirely possible if the two bits of tape have been separate for some time.
* The 27/01 recording is a flipped stereo image of the 23/01 recording. If you can reverse the channels when you listen to the 27/01 recording, they sound more similar: Jerry just to the right, Phil to the right, Bob just to the left. the drums to the left, the organ sporadically in the middle, the vocals (well, some chatter anyway) to the hard right

I think that musically they are similar, Pigpen is sporadic to non-existent on the organ in both and Jerry's guitar tone is very similar if not identical.

I think the 23/01 recording is more hissy due to being a later tape generation than the 27/01 recording, which accounts for the more condensed stereo image, which is, nevertheless, not inconsistent with the 27/01 recording's stereo image once you reverse the 27/01 recording's channels.

In other words, I can't point to a specific timing and, indeed, my hypothesis (that the 23/01 Spanish Jam is the end of one tape and that the 27/01 Spanish Jam is the beginning of another tape) necessitates some lost music in the middle. I don't believe there is any overlap.

This post was modified by Arck on 2010-06-01 03:51:11

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